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Author Topic: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!  (Read 34986 times)

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Offline AlmightyNam

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Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« on: September 03, 2007, 07:34:08 PM »
Okay. I'm assuming that Mizuki is going to wipe the old thread from existence, which means, I get to repost. If there are good suggestions, I'll add them.

Before I say anything else I will tell people my impression of Hisui. She is, in many uses of the word, bullshit. She is most likely the love child of Anji and Ky, having both tremendous zoning ability, good damage, and autoblocks (in the form of clash frames). She also has nice okizeme options on throw or on wake up if they choose not to tech. And they do choose to tech, you have a tech punish opportunity. Plus, she has too many anti air moves that can be combo’d off of. Basically, she has the ability to control the round from start to finish with only a bit of effort from the player.

Okay, Lets get started.

Strengths:
Relative Ease of Play (Little to no execution requirement)
Ridiculous Clash Frames
Good Damage
Good Priority
Good Zoning
Super antiair
Many options on wakeup

Weaknesses:
A few moves easily bara-able.
Pressures… are there… kinda… but not really.

BnBs:
Okay, I stick to three, and unfortunately, I don’t think I start one of them correctly.
2A 2B 2C 5C 6C j.BC, j.BC Airthrow. (Okay, standard. It does about 3k damage, fairly easy to hit with.)

[5]C 2C 5B j.A B C j. B C throw (I believe you can start this from any ground normal into chair, but I don’t know for sure and that’s how I always practiced it. Does about 4k damage.)

Okay, now is the famous EX Dust loop. Possibly the easiest loop in the game with only a very small timing requirement if the opponent is standing.

(If opponent is standing)
2B 5C 623C 5B 5C (wait a bit) 5B 5C 2B 2C 5C 6C j.BC j.BC throw (Okay. The window you’re allotted to hit the 5B again and still combo is pretty small, but it is doable. If you’re not close enough the dust may go in front of them, and then you have to do a mix up or a pressure. Does about 5-6k damage)

(If opponent is crouching)
2B 5C 623C 5B 5C 5A(whiff cancel) 5B 5C 5A(Whiff cancel) 2B 2C 5C 6C j.BC j.BC throw (A LOT easier to do. Does 5-6k damage)

And Lastly, I ended up learning this on accident while practicing the dust loop.
5C 236C 5A 5B j.B C j.B C throw. (A lot less room for error than the dust loop at the expense of 1k damage; does 5k)

Normals to know about:
5A: Good anti air, you can poke people out of the sky with this.
2A: Okay, nothing very special about it, good or bad.
2B: Very nice clash frames, but the real reason anyone would use this move is for the tech punish properties. Not much else to say. If you know where they’re going to tech, use this to punish it.
2C: Standard Sweep, can’t tech from it. Drop a Bento box and have some fun okizeme, or combo.
5C: Okay… it’s the chair. The chair is pretty darn useful, but not without its weaknesses. First it’s unblockable in the air, so if you have an annoying V.Akiha flying around, the chair will swat it out of the sky. Second, it’s got enormous clash frames. I once chaired my way out of Shiki’s ex Shoryuken. Third, its only vulnerability points are at the very start and the finish of the chair’s animation, and if you whiff cancel it, its only got vulnerability in the beginning. If someone tries to stuff it after the small window of vulnerability, you’ll either trade hits, or win. Period.  And lastly, you can make an easy 4k combo from a ground hit from chair, and max 6k damage if you got meter. If you hit someone in the air, you can go straight into your air combo.  Now, it seems like it’s really good and should be used often. Wrong. It should be used only to stuff other people’s attacks. Don’t throw them out there willy nilly, despite what you see in my matches. For one, it is extremely bara-able, which is really bad. If you fight a person who has no good baras, then lucky you, but still don’t use it too much, for reason two. It is also fairly baitable if you use it too much. You can only whiff cancel on block, but if the opponent side steps, or jumps over it, you’re a sitting duck. I am in the process of trying to break the urge of using it whenever it looks like a good idea.
j.B: good poke out of the air.
j.C: Another good poke for a high hit on the ground.
j.2C: Relatively bad priority (relative to j.C), slow activation, not a high hit. You’d think it sucks, but it makes for a great cross up on wake up, and also has some other options that I’ve seen, but don’t fully understand.

Specials:
236A,B,C: EX version is the only worthwhile one(in my opinion), because you can combo afterward if you hit.
623A,B,C: The A version is okay if your chair was blocked, you missed the whiff cancel and you really gotta run away. EX version is the only real pressure move Hisui has.
214A,B,C: Ex version pretty useless, though does a humorous amount of damage to the AI. A and B versions are good zones.
22A,B,C: A and B are bentos. Use one after a throw or 2c for a mix up(or so I’m told) or a tick throw. Very useful. 22C is a chair. In all honesty, I’ve seen it used, but I don’t see how it affects the match.
6C,6C,236C: Three step cooking. If you get the third hit off, it results in a wall slam, and you can combo if you’re close to a wall by hitting 5B and doing the air combo. Charge the second 6C for a high hit.
4B: Watering can. Takes away 30% magic circuit, and if they’re standing, they fall down. I mostly use this after an ex dust if they’re far enough back, because I can eat off 60% meter, or if they’re standing, 30% and then they get hit by the dust.

Arc Drives:
Arc Drive, Satoday Naito FEEVAAA!!!: I don't care what it really is called, the fact that she says that was enough for me to love playing as her. Much like Shiki's Arc, its a get out of any shit you're in free card, unless they're too close and running into you, so watch out for that. Also, if your opponent is in the air, there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop being hit, unless they're too high. Plus you can charge it, I don't think its a good idea to, but you can.

Another Arc: Same thing, except it hits more times, so don't jump too early 'cause you may miss a combo opportunity afterward.

Last Arc: You fuck with their controls. If you don't make them eat multiple combos, I'm going to smack you.

Unless I forgot anything(Which, by the way is up to you guys to point out) I think I’m done.

DISCUSS!!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 04:50:23 PM by AlmightyNam »

Offline mizuki

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2007, 07:36:01 PM »
I'm not deleting the thread, it's going to stay there, stink and rot to just remind you guys if you fuck it up again, something worse is going to happen.
what the fuck is this game

Offline AlmightyNam

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2007, 07:36:14 PM »
@Mizuki: Fair enough.

Now, I am double posting to gain attention.

There will be NO insults at all. If there are, I'm pming Mizuki to lock this thread immediately. Its the grace of mods like him that I'm allowed to repost this, and its not going to be ruined. Believe it or not, you can disagree without using the word, "Fuck". In fact, you can even be civil, and post your complaint.

None of us are perfect, and just because you don't use a certain tactic, doesn't mean it sucks. It just means you don't use it. If you don't like the tactic, then beat the player who uses it. That is the most effective way to prove a tactic sucks and no amount of forum posts can disprove that your tactic is better. And if you fail to beat that tactic, then no amount of excuses will save you from looking like a complete dick if you don't acknowledge the validity of the tactic you don't like.

And also, for the record. J.BB is damn useful, in fact, if I just J.BB'd in this match after the saturday night fever instead of trying to finish the combo, I probably could've come out on top.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 07:42:48 PM by AlmightyNam »

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2007, 07:43:22 PM »
Fucking hell, I was in the middle of creating this GORGEOUS Hisui guide (I mean it, I had images for all the normals and plenty other shit) >_>.

Gah.


Strengths:
Relative Ease of Play (Little to no execution requirement)

I wouldn't say little to no execution requirement.

Quote
Ridiculous Clash Frames

Good yes, ridiculous though, Nah.

Quote
Good Damage

Yeah.

Quote
Good Priority

On?

Quote
Good Zoning

Once she gets going, yes.

Quote
Super antiair

623+B?

Quote
Many options on wakeup

No. No options on wake up.

Quote
A few moves easily bara-able.

But not really worth it.

Quote
Pressures… are there… kinda… but not really.

??

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Offline KomagPHL

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2007, 07:44:27 PM »
how exactly are the controls fucked up (last arc)? is it always down is up, up is down, left is right, right is left? or is it randomized all the time? how does the bento box trigger mechanism work?

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2007, 07:46:04 PM »
Controls are all reversed, so yes, up is down left is right and so on.

Good question on the bento box tho, hmmmm.
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Offline AlmightyNam

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2007, 07:49:43 PM »
Fucking hell, I was in the middle of creating this GORGEOUS Hisui guide (I mean it, I had images for all the normals and plenty other shit) >_>.

Gah.


Strengths:
Relative Ease of Play (Little to no execution requirement)

I wouldn't say little to no execution requirement.
Actually, only execution requirement for any of her BnB's is the dust loop, and thats only if you don't/can't whiff cancel
Quote
Quote
Ridiculous Clash Frames

Good yes, ridiculous though, Nah.
Every move thats not A has clash frames. Ridiculous, yes
Quote

Quote
Good Damage

Yeah.

Quote
Good Priority

On?
J.B, J.C
Quote
Quote
Good Zoning

Once she gets going, yes.

Quote
Super antiair

623+B?
623 b is not really that good. I meant Chair, standing A, and Arc drive
Quote
Quote
Many options on wakeup

No. No options on wake up.
I meant opponent waking up. You got your cross ups, mix ups, tick throws, she can do anything, granted theres a bento box or you have excellent execution.
Quote
Quote
A few moves easily bara-able.

But not really worth it.

Quote
Pressures… are there… kinda… but not really.

??


I couldn't think of weaknesses. For pressures, she's got a whiff cancel block string, but its basically betting on your opponent being too scared to try to beat you. Then theres the ex dust... which is 100% tension, and you can fit in 1, maybe 2 mix ups tops.

how exactly are the controls fucked up (last arc)? is it always down is up, up is down, left is right, right is left? or is it randomized all the time? how does the bento box trigger mechanism work?
Its kinda fucked up. Its like, if you wake up on it, it takes a bit to explode. Otherwise it explodes on contact.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 07:52:00 PM by AlmightyNam »

Offline linalys

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2007, 07:54:17 PM »
how does the bento box trigger mechanism work?

Proximity is the trigger method. 
<Xenozip> actually i think miyako was intuitive for linalys
<Xenozip> simple because his playstyle is.. well..
<Xenozip> linalys
<Xenozip> true chaotic

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2007, 08:05:47 PM »
Quote
Actually, only execution requirement for any of her BnB's is the dust loop, and thats only if you whiff cancel

Don't whiff cancel for the dust loop, just learning the timing for 2B / 5C, you can net a good 5K+ off of it.

Quote
Every move thats not A has clash frames. Ridiculous, yes.

I've never had them work in my favor though (save 5B), I'll have to look into that.

Quote
J.B, J.C

Agreed.

Quote
623 b is not really that good. I meant Chair, standing A, and Arc drive

623+B is really good. It has upper body invincibility and hits twice, and she doesn't MOVE at all. It can be empty cancelled into ex dust as well, and counters some long pokes (like Chaos' shit). Use it more often, but intelligently (like if your opponent keeps super jumping around like a moron, throw this out).

Those other moves aren't so much real anti airs as they just zoning really (standing A is AA for everyone in the game). 5B is a better normal for AA, but 5C is good for catching people trying to jump or back from the openings in your block string (make sure to follow it up).

Quote
I meant opponent waking up. You got your cross ups, mix ups, tick throws, she can do anything, granted theres a bento box or you have excellent execution.

Yeah, Hisui's hella stupid when she's got something out to cover her. Go wild.

Unless you're fucking fighting Ciel.

That stupid bitch.

Also you said Hisui doesn't need execution requirements but now you said it's necessary for okizeme?

;p?

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Offline AlmightyNam

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2007, 08:13:22 PM »
Quote
Actually, only execution requirement for any of her BnB's is the dust loop, and thats only if you whiff cancel

Don't whiff cancel for the dust loop, just learning the timing for 2B / 5C, you can net a good 5K+ off of it.

Quote
Every move thats not A has clash frames. Ridiculous, yes.

I've never had them work in my favor though (save 5B), I'll have to look into that.

Quote
J.B, J.C

Agreed.

Quote
623 b is not really that good. I meant Chair, standing A, and Arc drive

623+B is really good. It has upper body invincibility and hits twice, and she doesn't MOVE at all. It can be empty cancelled into ex dust as well, and counters some long pokes (like Chaos' shit). Use it more often, but intelligently (like if your opponent keeps super jumping around like a moron, throw this out).

Those other moves aren't so much real anti airs as they just zoning really (standing A is AA for everyone in the game). 5B is a better normal for AA, but 5C is good for catching people trying to jump or back from the openings in your block string (make sure to follow it up).

Quote
I meant opponent waking up. You got your cross ups, mix ups, tick throws, she can do anything, granted theres a bento box or you have excellent execution.

Yeah, Hisui's hella stupid when she's got something out to cover her. Go wild.

Unless you're fucking fighting Ciel.

That stupid bitch.

Also you said Hisui doesn't need execution requirements but now you said it's necessary for okizeme?

;p?

Whiff cancel still does 5K+ with the dust loop on everyone except Akiha. Even if you lose some damage with the whiff cancel, its the choice between a guaranteed 4.6K vs a risky 5K.

and, I see why you like 623 B, but a chair is unblockable in the air, and I can combo off of it for about 2.5-3k damage. I just think that there are less situations that 623 would be more advantageous than the chair , plus, I don't like shoryukens because my execution of them aren't the greatest. Standing A is not anti air for everyone, as noted by Shiki. (Keep on practicing that shin kick little buddy, one day people will evolve so their shins are on their head, and then you can anti air)

And yes, Ciel is a bitch.

And, she doesn't need an execution requirement like other characters. You can still do your bnb's without needing to carefully time your moves like Arc, you can just pick her up, and in 10 minutes, you can have her basic combo down.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 08:16:15 PM by AlmightyNam »

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2007, 08:32:01 PM »
Quote
Whiff cancel still does 5K+ with the dust loop on everyone except Akiha. Even if you lose some damage with the whiff cancel, its the choice between a guaranteed 4.6K vs a risky 5K.

And possibly winning or losing a match because of it, but that's just personal choice ;p.

Quote
and, I see why you like 623 B, but a chair is unblockable in the air, and I can combo off of it for about 2.5-3k damage. I just think that there are less situations that 623 would be more advantageous than the chair , plus, I don't like shoryukens because my execution of them aren't the greatest. Standing A is not anti air for everyone, as noted by Shiki. (Keep on practicing that shin kick little buddy, one day people will evolve so their shins are on their head, and then you can anti air)

Chair comes out wayyyyyy too slow to be considered AA, and well all they need to do is iad and jump straight up and there goes that AA. Let them try and get past 623+B empty cancel into 623+C :p. That alone destroys most of Satuski's game.
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Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2007, 01:54:50 PM »
Ok I'll just be throwing things into this thread every so often ;p.

There should really only be four 'items' you should be using when doing stuff-fu (214+A/B).

The one you'll be using most is 2141+B, aka pot books. The book comes out at a low angle, hits twice (once on contact, and a second when opening up on the floor) and the pot travels at a nice arc at nearly full screen. If you're given a chance to do it, super jump and follow 'pot', it's practically free entry on your opponent.

Then you have 2142+A, which is just pot if I'm not mistaken. You should use this every so often after block strings in the corner or when you might want to stop someone from jumping around aimlessly. Please note that this 'pot' comes out faster then 'pot-books', hence it being worth using.

Next is 2146+A, which is just book. Throw this out randomly in block strings when you have the guy in the corner and don't have dust to rely on. It'll also otg. Not sure about it's speed in coming out.

Lastly is 2146+B, aka TRAY-BOOKS. This is your primary spam projectile from a little bit past half to full screen. Tray will fly across the screen pretty damn quick, and book comes out per usual. Use this to annoy your oppent into doing something stupid, but sparsely against characters who can retaliate (even without meter) like Aoko, Chaos, Mech Hisui, and Ciel. Don't use it against Ciel at all, the bitch can DASH under it and her dash will clash with book as well.

You can not control what comes out from 214+C (with no meter) nor can you do it with ex-stuff either. At best EX-Stuff is a decent option for a bara move which can lead to a MASSIVE counter hit stun (they'll be stuck in the air for a good 2-3 seconds).

;p
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 01:56:45 PM by Master Chibi »
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Offline mizuki

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2007, 01:57:54 PM »
Hey, a quick question. Is the effect of Hisui's Last Arc just like the same as Neco Arc Chaos' ex dp?
what the fuck is this game

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2007, 02:21:46 PM »
Yes, but your circuit doesn't get broken, nor do your controls get reversed.

:P
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Offline mizuki

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2007, 02:35:50 PM »
Yes, but your circuit doesn't get broken, nor do your controls get reversed.

:P

But they are the criminal.
what the fuck is this game

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2007, 02:39:28 PM »
Brainwash detective STRIKS AGAIN  >:D
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Offline Arlieth Tralare

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2007, 03:04:15 PM »
Uhh, controls DO get reversed, I thought. You don't get life back though.
<bellreisa> arly *has* given up 3s
<bellreisa> retired it anyways
<linalys> no he hasn't
<linalys> it lives on in crouch shield
<proxyZAR> and it will die there too lol

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2007, 03:09:47 PM »
Uhh, controls DO get reversed, I thought. You don't get life back though.

I was talking about HER controls.

;p
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Offline linalys

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2007, 03:30:38 PM »
He's talking about 623c, NAC doesn't circuit break nor dizzy himself with that move. 
<Xenozip> actually i think miyako was intuitive for linalys
<Xenozip> simple because his playstyle is.. well..
<Xenozip> linalys
<Xenozip> true chaotic

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2007, 03:44:56 PM »
Shit you're right, my bad.

Is his LA the one that does that?
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Offline AlmightyNam

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2007, 04:33:19 PM »
Chair comes out wayyyyyy too slow to be considered AA, and well all they need to do is iad and jump straight up and there goes that AA. Let them try and get past 623+B empty cancel into 623+C :p. That alone destroys most of Satuski's game.
You're talking to the wrong guy about this. I'm recovering from the habit of spamming the chair, and I know its strengths and weaknesses inside and out. Its definitely not too slow for an antiair, but the startup is a split second of vulnerability, so, you don't want to use the chair if a V.Akiha is directly above you, for instance, because you will lose. You can, however, use the chair if a V.Akiha is IADing to start a nice air combo. And considering you think damage is everything, chair into air combo/dustloop(if your opponent is unfortunate enough to land) vs using 623 B and then ex dust, using meter... I think I'll go with the chair.

Thx for the Pots explaination. I didn't bother adding it because we already have a thread on it, but I guess I'll add it so it'll be there.

Oh, one last thing, we are only 3 hours away from going a full 24 hours without having this thread locked. Keep up the good work everybody.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 05:23:17 PM by AlmightyNam »

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2007, 07:11:23 PM »
Ok, believe whatever the hell you want and keeping whatever you want.

I'm just going to shut the hell up from now on and be done with it.
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Offline AlmightyNam

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2007, 07:24:32 PM »
Dude, just because I use a different tactic doesn't mean yours is any less valid. On the flipside, just because you like using a certain move, it doesn't mean that my reasons are any less valid. The whole point of discussing tactics is to find new ideas that we never tried before. Plus, I enjoy your critiques of my tactics because it forces me to defend my own strategies, which in turn gives me, you and anyone else reading this a better understanding of how we both play our Hisuis, and the advantages and disadvantages of each.

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2007, 07:56:19 PM »
5C isn't a freaking worthwhile anti-air.

Zar and Xaq will pound this entire your head when we get there at this month's C3.

That's all I have to say.
~*Hai! Back to Japan!


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Offline mizuki

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION B.2
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2007, 08:55:13 PM »
... This isn't AIM guys.
what the fuck is this game