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Author Topic: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!  (Read 35049 times)

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Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2007, 03:01:27 PM »
I would advise you to keep your distance from Nanaya, because once he gets his rushdown going you'll be blocking and eating mixups for quite a while.

If you've got the chance to, do 623+C to create some space between you and him, and then run into it and set up A bento, B, Bento and chairs. Wait for him to jump towards you and nail him with 623+B, if not, then immediately walk up to the B bento and set up another A bento right there. Make him come to you and force a mistake, all the while giving yourself space to breathe.

Also, if they're 'breaking your tables', bait their tactics then.

Save some replays next time :D!
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Offline AlmightyNam

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2007, 04:34:34 PM »
Yeah, with replays we can analyze and help you recognize bad habits.

And speaking of bad habits, don't use the chair often, specially the [5]c where you charge at the person. Even though your opponents are probably not good enough to stop you, its very easily baitable and bara cancelable in the higher levels of play.

Never fought any of the people you mentioned. Ciel I've fought a couple times, and all I can say is if you fight a ciel, don't press buttons. I wish I was joking, but any mis-pressed button against Ciel = Death. Hisu/Koha is pretty much making sure Kohaku doesn't knock you down(heh, yeah, easier said than done.)

Getting in... you gotta follow pots you throw if you want a i'd say 70-80% chance of being safe, but really, I'd rather keep my distance. Against a ciel its not very advantageous, but j.B can beat just about any jump-in,(and, in my recent experiences,its been pretty a pretty handy air to ground move, but I need confirmation if its a good idea to do so) which you can lead into a combo, and you can zone pretty nicely with pots/dust/etc. Her zoning isn't as good as say, Ciel(God I hate her.) but you got the range, so use it.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 04:36:31 PM by AlmightyNam »

Offline Psydunk

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2007, 05:30:32 PM »
First off, I would like to say thankyou for the tips guys. When I get the chance, I will save a replay.

EDIT: I made a video today against a CPU Nanaya, but for some reason, I could not find it in the replay folder.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 11:22:43 AM by Psydunk »

Offline Greyvangelist

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2007, 04:58:27 PM »
I dunno if it's my terrible execution but for some reason my 5C in her BnB comes out far too late and ends up hitting the enemy while they're already on the ground. I use the exact same kind of motion when going for 2c to 5c but for some reason sometimes it doesn't work.

Offline Zaido

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2007, 06:34:35 PM »
one reason is you might press the button a little to late or alittle too long, cause the move is a charge move, its pretty sensitive
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Offline Master_Amado

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2007, 09:20:56 PM »
Is there a practical use of her 236 ex in the air? Also what is the best combo to use after landing the 236 ex on the ground if the opponent does not tech at the end?

Offline Numakie

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2007, 04:38:30 AM »
Is there a practical use of her 236 ex in the air? Also what is the best combo to use after landing the 236 ex on the ground if the opponent does not tech at the end?

The 236 EX has some of its merits.
-It has an invincible frame at start up.
-It brings you down to the ground quickly.
-The hit box is largely diagonal down.
-Because of its multi hit property, this move requires multiple shielding to shield successfully.
-Quick recovery when you touch the ground with this move.

It is possible to do a combo off of a 236 EX if you happen to land it on the opponent.  Note that the EX version will carry a grounded opponent off the ground.

Basically it is j236C-5B-6C-jC-jC-Throw.  Nothing too fancy but it is to the point.

I made 2 examples showing this and plopped them down in the Melty Bread FTP site. Visit this topic for access the FTP site.
http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?topic=395.0

Replay file: CV-Numakie-Hisui 236EX Combos.zip



« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 04:56:27 AM by Numakie »
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Offline AlmightyNam

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2007, 08:32:10 AM »
Though, even with its merits, the move is very situational. There are so many better air to ground moves that you can use(like... any of her air normals), and better uses of your meter than to use a 236 c in the air.

Though 236 anything in the air is pretty good if you have to stay in the air a bit longer, like, if you're about to land on an arc drive or something.

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2007, 10:41:00 AM »
Honestly, you're better off not really using it, it's a waste a meter 99% of the time. It has it's obscure uses (like for getting to the ground quicker if you've landed an odd CH in the air), and it actually beats out Satsuki's nut grab on reaction, but all in all I wouldn't bother with it. As for 236C on the ground, I do 5A 5B and combo from there usually.
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Offline Numakie

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2007, 11:21:10 AM »
As for 236C on the ground, I do 5A 5B and combo from there usually.

I like using 2B 6C after a ground 236C then to an air combo.  Slight frame disadvantage from any A move but i like the sound of the frying pan.  :P

Quote
... what is the best combo to use after landing the 236 ex on the ground if the opponent does not tech at the end?

You can actually continue the combo after the last hit of the 236 EX, though the timing is pretty strict. The key is hitting them right before they hit the ground.
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<Pfhor>: like WHY IS THIS HISUI DOING THESE THINGS

Offline Master_Amado

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2007, 01:00:12 AM »
Ok next question why do people air dash and push b after an air throw. I figure the air dash is to keep the momentum and to stay next to the opponent when they land but why the b attack before landing it does not hit and it even comes out the wrong way so I am pretty sure you cant use it as an over head and it come out way before the opponent is up so why do it?  :psyduck:

Offline Zaido

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2007, 02:18:21 AM »
negates airdash landing recovery

next time you try airdash, and dont throw an attack and see if you can attack right away after you land
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 02:20:32 AM by Zaido »
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Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2007, 07:51:26 PM »
You use it to negate landing recovery in hopes that you can tech punish if you guess right.
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Offline vayseth

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2008, 07:06:51 PM »
On the first basic BnB is it better to end with dj.BC 6Q or dj.BB (aka, the purse spike down). I have seen in a lot of videos Hisui players using the latter more often and it seems like they get decent wake up mix up with it. What do you guys feel about that (or about ending ANY combo with j.BB instead of air throw)?

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2008, 08:16:11 PM »
lol

Honestly, it depends on the player, but there are situations that call for either one.

5A 2C is Hisui's universal tech punish. If you space it right, it'll always nail the other guy regardless of how they tech, and if they don't tech it keeps them to the floor and gives way to you for oki.

So if you see vids of some Japanese players doing jb j.c and then jbb past half screen, then they're damnded confident in their spacing that they can then tech punish their opponent because that will pretty much send them right to he corner. They'll follow up with 5.A, 2.c (6b, 2a etc) and go from there.

However if you're not really in that position to do such a thing you can still do the usual BnB and tech punish afterwards, but you'll have to guess which way they'll tech. Going with the j.bb option (when done right) will always net a tech punish, but that's why I said it depends on the player, and more so their opponent and their ability to read (guess) them or whether or not they know said opponent's tendencies to tech in certain directions.

If I'm quite far away from the corner (too far go to properly utilize j.BB) I go for the regular BnB then jump away from the corner. If they tech punish fowards (and I guess right) I can punish with something on the way down (j.C perhaps). If they tech backwards (into the corner), well guess what, they're in the corner and I'm not, so it's still in my favor. I've seen this in vids as well.

Also, you can do something like 2a2b5c2c6c, jc, air dash, jc, j.c, jbb as well. The 5C being down before the 2c will give you that push you'll need to get closer into the corner, and the last j.c / j.bb will help position you where you can then tech punish your opponent.

The thing with Hisui is that there are certain things you should do (ie her BnB, set out bento after a throw, etc) but she's got alot going for her to be played how you like. Well, to a certain extent.

;p
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 08:19:15 PM by Master Chibi »
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Offline Numakie

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2008, 02:27:09 AM »
I find that the j.BB follow up in the corner becomes a guessing game on whether the opponent will tech or not.

If you come across a player who is tech happy, go ahead and tech punish to your hearts content.  The Universal 5A, 2C trap is always good... cept on small characters like Len, W.Len and both Akiha's or Miyako since the 5A whiffs over their stupid little heads.  Be weary that the Netural tech is faster then the Foward/Back tech, so adjust accordingly.

If it turns out they rather bounce, you can either extend the combo by catching them before they fall, or trap em in the corner with a bento or chair. 

If then you come across someone who will do either or, it becomes a matter of if you can react fast enough to what they do.

--Edited: fixed/verified/corrected info--
« Last Edit: January 14, 2008, 11:15:43 PM by Numakie »
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Offline Villainous

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2008, 07:34:04 PM »
So what do you guys do when you're stuck in the corner under pressure? Especially vs. Arc, I'm having trouble if I get cornered and getting mixed up to hell without a lot of escape options. Parrying worked for a bit and so did poking him out of his jumping wake up options, but he adapted to that quick so now I need to figure out some ways of getting out of their safely without eating a 40%+ combo.

Offline Numakie

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2008, 10:13:10 PM »
Honestly, Being stuck in the corner is prolly one of Hisui's major disadvantages, especially when the opponent has a solid block string to keep you there. She also doesn't have a reliable move for wake up most of the time.  One of the obstacles i had to overcome was to just be patient and block for long periods of time if need be, hoping that they will leave some sort of opening or make a mistake.

As for tools to help you get out [aside from the universal ones (ie: circut spark, 214C)], i find uses of these options during mid pressure or wake up:

Hisui Dust Cloud (623-C): if you can manage to get this out somehow, you may be able stop their rush down altogether and give yourself a small breather. There is a bit of start up though and no invincibility upon execution, so it may not be the safest option by itself.

Ground Multi stabbin' satchel (236-A,C):  The A version is surprisingly quick on start up. The EX version has a slight frame of invincibility on start up.  If done right, you can catch them from mid poke, or at the very least, trade off. If you mess up though, especially with the EX version (they block or you totally whiff), be prepared to eat it.

Hisui-doken/Saturday Night Fever (41236-C in heat mode) - This is perhaps one of Hisui's best options of getting out of the corner. Invincibility on start up, free cross up if they're up close, and instant recovery after she shoots her fireball.   The move is only available once in a while though.

In most cases though, i find that blocking and waiting is her best option most of the time.  Trying desperately to get out of the corner by any means necessary leaves you open and vunerable to frame traps (read: block strings).  If anything, get a feel on how they keep you pressured, how they delay their moves, when they dash, when they jump, if they go for dash in throws, how they cancel their moves, just.. everything they do, and then find openings from that.
~~Playing the wrong way... and somehow getting away with it.~~
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<Pfhor>: because it makes no fucking sense
<Pfhor>: like WHY IS THIS HISUI DOING THESE THINGS

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2008, 10:55:42 PM »
@ Numakie:

Actually her 5A 2C will not tech punish both the Lens and both the Akihas, but it will work on everyone else. Ikusat mentioned something about their hitboxes being abnormally low / small. You can try and go for 2B in these cases, but the window to tech punish in that case is supposedly 1 frame, so take that for what it's worth.

@ Villainous:

If you absolutely need a breather from pressure in the corner, 623C is the way to go if you get that one millisecond to throw it out there. Why? Absolutely NOTHING beats that dust cloud once it's out, so use it as a free shield. Do dust cloud, run right into the dust cloud, then put down an A bento. Then put down a B bento. By now the cloud should be dissipating, but you'll be sitting right ontop of A bento. Sure, your opponent could still rush in on you but you've got 623B at your disposal, and even they get in quick enough they'll be interrupted by the bento. At this point it's a good to run out to the B bento and place an A bento there, because the A bento will have likely faded away. Place a chair, then another B bento, and get to tossing shit around the screen.

One thing to make note of, it's really only a good idea to do the above when you half a significant lead in health, otherwise there's no reason for your opponent to come running in on you through all the crap you have set up. The above can also be used when you're not in the corner, as a mid screen tactic to annoy the shit out of your opponent. Works pretty well.

236A is not a valid wake up option. Ever. 236C is an acceptable wake option to be used as sparingly as possible. It's best only when you absolutely know your opponent is going to be spamming a meaty on you (ie 4000 2.A's). It's acceptable because it has a tiny bit of invincibility, but not enough to warrant to be used as a constant wake up option.

And 41236C is a fucking crazy good Last Arc, and fine as a wake up option (as it's safe and crosses up, go ahead and try it) but in a way it is a bit of a waste.

Noting in this game is 100% abusable in every situation, so take that as you will.

In reality, your best option really is to block your way out of the corner. You'll probably see holes in your opponent's offense start to sprout up, and really noone in this game can do block strings for forever. If your opponent just RUNS / iad's in when it's clear their offensive front has reached it's end, make them pay for it (2b, 623B, etc).

Also, some things to consider (after fucking around with her):



Hisui's upper body invincibility falls right in the space of that box. If something is directly above you (or just a bit off the center infront of you) that 623B is going to nail it. Uncharged B laser from Aoko, normal laser from M.Hisui, and I believe A crow from Nvsnzqr will go right through it.

And the proximity for her bento also falls in the box shown below. It was much bigger in the PS2 version, but it's clear they shrunk it, but you can combo INTO bento from an air combo (it'll bounce them right back up). I think that promixity actually falls back a bit further (to the left of the actual tray).



;p
« Last Edit: January 14, 2008, 11:13:46 PM by Master Chibi »
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Offline Numakie

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2008, 11:09:18 PM »
@ Numakie:

Actually her 5A 2C will not tech punish both the Lens and both the Akihas...


Ohh. your right *just tried it*  Seems they go into a ducking animation after they tech.

Thanks for the heads up.
~~Playing the wrong way... and somehow getting away with it.~~
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<Pfhor>: because it makes no fucking sense
<Pfhor>: like WHY IS THIS HISUI DOING THESE THINGS

Offline F9|Chibi

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2008, 11:42:33 PM »
Nah thank you.

I only have one V.Akiha player to play against here, and no Akiha or Len expierence what so ever so I didn't even know about this, I thought 5.A 2.C was universal.

Yes, I just thanked you.

I feel dirty.
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Offline Villainous

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2008, 11:57:02 AM »
snip

Ok, that should help a lot, I did not know that her 623B had upper body invincibility. That'll help a lot vs. his jump ins, as Arc's j.C seems to have retarded priority and beat out most of my anti air options on the ground, and also seems to beat anything I try when I jump.

While we're on the note of anti air, does Hisui have anything that's air unblockable?

Offline Numakie

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2008, 01:26:05 PM »
snip

Ok, that should help a lot, I did not know that her 623B had upper body invincibility. That'll help a lot vs. his jump ins, as Arc's j.C seems to have retarded priority and beat out most of my anti air options on the ground, and also seems to beat anything I try when I jump.

While we're on the note of anti air, does Hisui have anything that's air unblockable?

Generally, characters in the air are unable to block against most attacks from a grounded opponent.  This means for, an example, a standing 5A will always hit an opponent in mid air regardless of if he tries to block or not (They can still shield or hit you with another move however).  I have heard this term being called "Guard crushing" from other peeps.

That being said, most of Hisui's grounded normals except the 6b will guard crush an opponent.  I i think the 623-b Dust in the air is unblockable as well (please verify).  Her Hisui-doken though is perhaps the best move since it covers a massive chunk of the bottom screen.. and it cant be air blocked ;3. 

~~Playing the wrong way... and somehow getting away with it.~~
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<Pfhor>: because it makes no fucking sense
<Pfhor>: like WHY IS THIS HISUI DOING THESE THINGS

Offline Sledeau

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2008, 01:41:27 PM »
Guard crushing is usually referred to when you hit someone with an air unblockable while they're in blockstun, not just the unairblockable normal itself. For example, hitting someone with a j.c in the air as you land, then 5a'ing them while they're still in the block animation. I could be wrong on that, maybe the air blockstun actually does end on a setup like that before you can hit them with 5a, but it seems fairly effective on me when a character like Satsuki uses that. Maybe I just need to mash shield more.

And yes, 623b can't be air blocked. 623c can be air blocked, but hey, free guard crush opportunity.

Offline Felix Omni

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Re: Hisui thread! VERSION Bee, TOO!
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2008, 09:35:45 PM »
How should Hisui be played against Ciel?