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Author Topic: Is Melty both accessible and deep?  (Read 11015 times)

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Offline zeech

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Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« on: November 12, 2011, 05:40:45 PM »
Hi, over at SRK I was involved in a discussion about execution barriers in FG.  Some people argued that arbitrarily tricky execution added not much to games and instead just made it less welcoming for new or casual players.  Examples given were things like 360/720 motions, 1 frame links, pretzel motions.  Some were refuted, like 360/720 motions have actual gameplay/strategy impacts.  Of course, the usual elitist counterarguments were trotted out, regarding the dumbing down / casualisation of games, loss of depth and strategy, etc.

As for me, personally (i am a casual FG player since SF2/KOF94/VF1) I have been a bit angry at BB, where my main in BBCT (Tao) became so execution heavy in later games that combos became literally impossible for me with the amount of practice I am willing to put into that game.  And where other characters have BnBs that are very character specific, very long, and/or contain difficult components that have no alternatives.  And simplified versions of those combos are quite inferior in terms of damage, without those tricky components.

So anyways, in that thread I used Melty as an ultimate counterexample.  Its a game with simplified and standardised move motions, and a generous buffer system that lets you cancel pretty much anything into anything.  You can pick a character like WArc and be doing optimal damage just with basic ABC j ABC j ABC airthrow style combos (well, warc is j B C but you get what I mean), and that combo pattern works on any target.  Also, most characters in the game can do that type of combo, and still do reasonable damage.  It's pretty easy to get into and doesnt need a lot of practice or memorisation to start playing at a beginner competitive level.

Despite all this, Melty is still a totally legit competitive FG, and has depth and rewards for those who are hardcore enough to explore the gameplay fully.


Since out of all the FGs I've played, Im least familiar with Melty due to lack of a scene and decent netplay, I thought I would confirm here.


Can Melty be considered a good example that you dont need high execution barriers to have a deep and competitive FG?
(note that lacking "barriers" doesnt mean that there arent any high execution "opportunities".)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 05:43:21 PM by zeech »

Offline FireBearHero

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2011, 03:32:54 AM »
Melty gets crazy when you go for ideal. Crescent kohaku, for example, makes f/uc 100% combo BS look easy mode.
Then there's weird shit, like h-ciel only pressing the C button once in a blue moon as you BE4B juggle wall to wall.
The 'generous' frame buffer just makes it harder in the end because it turns those early queues into too late, whiff.

Offline Roy-Kr

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2011, 05:08:08 AM »
Block-stringing and comboing while keeping orbs up is heavy enough for me. Then again, i don't play any characters except Aoko and i don't play other fighters seriously, so i don't know jack :nyoro:

Offline Cristu

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2011, 12:18:13 PM »
I play some other games. Melty advanced shit actually make 1 frame links look like babies... You cant plink your way to happiness when you have a lot of strict timings to do things, and you have to control delayed and early attacks a lot of times in the same combo...

There are some simple bnbs, yeah, but doing them wont differentiate you from a guy who can do a hadouken in SF. If you cant do your decent combos you cant play Melty... I mean, the gameplay itself will require so much more execution then the execution for simple combos. It's much more complex then any game I've touched so far. That's why I love Melty :3. But well, yeah, it can certainly feel easy because Melty is pretty intuitive, but it's not easy and if you dont give it the time to really understand what is happening, you will be owned and will think something with the game is wrong, but it's not...
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Offline Tonberry

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2011, 12:48:07 PM »
As for me, personally (i am a casual FG player since SF2/KOF94/VF1) I have been a bit angry at BB, where my main in BBCT (Tao) became so execution heavy in later games that combos became literally impossible for me with the amount of practice I am willing to put into that game.

Do you really have problems with CS2 Tao j8da loop?  I picked that up in a couple of hours.

You can pick a character like WArc and be doing optimal damage just with basic ABC j ABC j ABC airthrow style combos (well, warc is j B C but you get what I mean), and that combo pattern works on any target.

That actually isn't her optimal combo anymore.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siiowqdtde0

Can Melty be considered a good example that you dont need high execution barriers to have a deep and competitive FG?

Overall yes but it also depends on what character someone wants to play.  I'd say somewhere between 40-50% of the characters in the game either have very easy combos or you can sacrifice a little bit of damage to do a much easier combo.  I'd say another 40-45% of characters have somewhat easy combos if you spend a decent amount of time practicing them.  The remaining characters have fairly high execution requirements. 
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Offline Rokunaya

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2011, 01:04:15 PM »
It's a pretty good game


imo
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Offline fiendmaw

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2011, 01:16:41 PM »
I think the thing with Melty is that you have choice.I dont think theres a single character that doesnt have anything better than doing simple ground strings into a simple aircombo.
The cancelling system being very freeform means the execution requirements ranges from easy abc combos to extremely hard combos,and even though the damage might not vary much due to the proration system,most of the time the harder combos give you better post-combo options(which are definately something you should pursue in such a momentum-based game like Melty.
Also regarding accessibility and competitive depth,mechanics like Heat and Last Arc can be really powerful in a low-level game but become very hard to use as freely in a higher level game because of the risks involved in both of them(beacuse most high level players are really good at baiting/avoiding/punishing them.
In short,Melty Blood does alot of things right,which is why it has such a passionate following,its not hard to pick up and play but it also offers the depth that high level/tournament players look for.
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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2011, 01:19:11 PM »
this game sucks cause NO NETPLAY wait
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Offline Psylocke

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2011, 03:37:53 PM »
In general, Melty is a very simple game especially if you have prior fighting game experience.  People who start with Melty as their first fighting game will most likely find it difficult, but I'm sure you could make the same argument about any game.  The basis of doing damage is in chain combos.  There's a lot of freedom in what you can do at any given moment(too much sometimes) and all of the move motions are simple(no 360s/720s, no charge characters, etc)

I will say though that starting from AA, the series stepped up its difficulty level.  It's no longer like MBAC where more than half the cast had the same exact same combos.  You actually get rewarded for having good execution now, but it's not a requirement.  There are some characters that require really good execution, like F-Arc, C and H Kohaku, and F-Kouma but they're the minority.
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Offline AnFox

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2011, 04:37:55 PM »
You guys are trying too hard. Just use this vid for future references.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRz776ZkCnU
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Offline fiendmaw

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2011, 11:26:07 PM »
You guys are trying too hard. Just use this vid for future references.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRz776ZkCnU
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2011, 12:35:49 AM »
Can Melty be considered a good example that you dont need high execution barriers to have a deep and competitive FG?

Overall yes but it also depends on what character someone wants to play.  I'd say somewhere between 40-50% of the characters in the game either have very easy combos or you can sacrifice a little bit of damage to do a much easier combo.  I'd say another 40-45% of characters have somewhat easy combos if you spend a decent amount of time practicing them.  The remaining characters have fairly high execution requirements.

This.  If you have good fighting game fundamentals (aka you aren't as dumb as a corner brick that got it's brain chopped off so it could fit the building) you can play in a casual setting with 5 minutes of practice with a good chunk of characters.  Getting past that, however, is another story.

It's as deep as a competitive fighting game can be.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 12:39:10 AM by Zaelar »

Offline zeech

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2011, 03:48:07 AM »
Thanks for the replies guys.

My ideal is that doing an easy combo will get you like 80% of the damage of an optimal one, for several characters.  The last 20% is for those experts, and they have to work progressively harder to reach optimal damage.  So people who are bad at execution will be at least hitting in the same ballpark as the experts.  (similarly, we have games like KOF where some characters dont have much more than strong hit > super).

From what people are saying, this seems to be the case in melty. (at least mbac, maybe less so in mbaa).

Contrast to BBCS2 Tao, where, without the j8D loop (or in BBCS:EX, drive cancels all over the place), you're looking at 1500 damage versus like over 5000 or something.  Maybe for certain people drive cancels are pretty simple, but I've always found that kind of technique to be really hard, despite being others ok at games generally.  I shudder to think what a FG newcomer would make of it.

 I like BBCT Tao's drive loop.  It was easy and mashable, and you only needed good timing on the last rep or two.  If you skipped them, due to proration you're only missing out on 500-1000 damage or so.  And you have the taunt combos for experts and showoffs, but for most players they werent quite damaging enough to risk the difficulty.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 03:50:23 AM by zeech »

Offline BurstOfAnger

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2011, 04:12:57 AM »
IMO, the thing about Melty that increases it's learning curve is not only advanced combos, but footsies as well. Melty isn't only freeform in its combo system but also it's movement system. Even in BB, you can't double jump after you airdash, whereas in MB you can mix almost anything.

Also, as said earlier, combos in MB aren't only for damage, but for placement advantages as well, like putting them at knockdown to leave you with free frames to place yourself or to put out a summon to cover you. Most of the time, learning the advanced combos rarely reward you with considerably more damage, but with this.

In general, Melty is a very simple game especially if you have prior fighting game experience.  People who start with Melty as their first fighting game will most likely find it difficult, but I'm sure you could make the same argument about any game.  The basis of doing damage is in chain combos.  There's a lot of freedom in what you can do at any given moment(too much sometimes) and all of the move motions are simple(no 360s/720s, no charge characters, etc)

I started out with Melty and the fighting game concept was very very new to me at that time. So much so that learning other games was very difficult. The absence of Reverse Beating in BB and the extremely tight combo system (relative to MB) in SF killed me :emo:
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Offline Zaelar

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2011, 04:27:59 AM »
If you only want "experts" to do the most damage go play an mmo.  It doesn't matter if it's 20% or 233% more damage, it's a stupid idea in any competitive game.

Offline caiooa

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2011, 06:07:55 AM »
IMO, the thing about Melty that increases it's learning curve is not only advanced combos, but footsies as well. Melty isn't only freeform in its combo system but also it's movement system. Even in BB, you can't double jump after you airdash, whereas in MB you can mix almost anything.
Also, as said earlier, combos in MB aren't only for damage, but for placement advantages as well, like putting them at knockdown to leave you with free frames to place yourself or to put out a summon to cover you. Most of the time, learning the advanced combos rarely reward you with considerably more damage, but with this.
qft. The freedom in movement of mb can make the game much harder for the guy that is defending. When i started playing mb, i eated sachin's oki 130% of time (not to talk about the fucking fuzzy guard) :'(

I started out with Melty and the fighting game concept was very very new to me at that time. So much so that learning other games was very difficult. The absence of Reverse Beating in BB and the extremely tight combo system (relative to MB) in SF killed me :emo:
hum....i normaly see mb as cvs2...the "mechanic storm" is so intense people normaly learn much more about other games mechanic playing mb and cvs2 than the reverse happens. I wold agree with you in this point before mbaa comes out, but the full moon don't have reverse beat, so i ended up learning to not rely in it (and f arc/ c arc combos are harder for me than 3s ryu).
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 06:16:42 AM by caiooa »
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Offline ehrik

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2011, 06:44:46 AM »
hi zeech

also id like to point out that sometimes "harder" combos will also net you better oki , Ex: satsuki's bnb has a 2-3f j.[c] link, but its pretty much required if you want to play her competitively...
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Offline Rowanism

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2011, 07:08:05 AM »
It's just that compared to Melty other fighting games just suck hard. Either too stiff, slow or not variable enough.
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Offline Numakie

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2011, 01:47:44 PM »
hi zeech

also id like to point out that sometimes "harder" combos will also net you better oki , Ex: satsuki's bnb has a 2-3f j.[c] link, but its pretty much required if you want to play her competitively...

I honestly never realized this... I've just been obsessed over doing CHisui's ladle loop combo her assured knockdown + free bento setup... cuz it is so satisfying to do.
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Offline zeech

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2011, 12:29:10 AM »
Heheh.... so are people here trying to convince me that melty is -not- accessible? :P

Offline Zaelar

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2011, 05:57:11 AM »
No fighting game is.

Offline zeech

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2011, 06:25:32 PM »
Well, relatively speaking.


Offline ehrik

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2011, 06:52:22 PM »
nah game is pretty easy to get into, just hard to master
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Offline UNREAL BLACK THING

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2011, 08:06:39 AM »
well ^^^ this.

Generally speaking, if you have experience in other fighters, the learning curve is low, but the fundamentals of the game (ie the shit you REALLY need to know to be DECENT at any fighter) take time to get used to. The pacing is fast, meter management is simple compared to other fighters (then again, i kinda take that back, Im still learning the moon styles so idk), combo execution can range from simple (dat nanaya) to strict (dat miyako).

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Offline LivingShadow

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Re: Is Melty both accessible and deep?
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2011, 08:48:30 AM »
combo execution can range from simple (dat F-Ries) to strict (dat Arcuied).

Fix'd

I've found that Melty is a decent starting fighter. Basic comboing practically teaches itself, in that just mashing will produce simple ground combos and from there it's relatively easy to figure out and optimize. And after you learn the basics there isn't much else you can do except start learning advanced concepts.

It also helps that most inputs in Melty are relatively simple. I think the most complex input is C-Kohaku's 3632141c drug install.