C-Ryougi Thoughts Without a Thread

[LivingShadow]

Same here. I don't think the extra damage is really that worth it for extra execution.

[Rei]

It's free meter and more free damage for trying a little harder. adding the dash isn't too hard. You literally just j.BC after 6C as fast as you can then airdash to get the best height.

Also working on uploading the C-Ryougi frames on the wiki. Currently the normals are done.

http://mbaa.mizuumi.net/index.php/Shiki_Ryougi#Frame_Data

[s4itox]

You literally input the dash immediately after you input the jC. Consider start doing the input right after you input the jC and before the hit even connects.

[Rei]

You literally input the dash immediately after you input the jC. Consider start doing the input right after you input the jC and before the hit even connects.

Yeah you can put the input before the move comes out, just queuing up the commands making things pretty easy. Hardest part of the basic combo is hitting the 2nd j.C because the airdash has a delay.

[Benny1]

Using command airdash (6AB) can also be a better way to constantly cancel the j.C during hitstop.

[Rei]

Eh I personally use 66 right after I input the first j.C

Also, I just came up with a way to do custom combos from a far 5B hit. If you aren't close enough for 8X to hit after doing 63214C, you can just start it with 5X then 8X.

For midscreen, I do

whatever moves into -> 5C or 2B 63214C 5X 8X D 8X 6X 8X 4X 5BB j.BC j.BC j.236B

also for those who don't know the 3 main option after the 236C sandoori setup (2A 5BB 2B 5C 2C 2369B 5BB 214A 623B 236C)

dash past their floating body superjump forward
-> land 2A/2B  reverse low option
-> double jump airdash back j.B/j.C reverse high option
-> (optional airdash forward) j.B/C high option

And all can go into a custom combo loop or fullscreen combos (if they can be hit by 2C 6C 22B)

Your meterless corner mixup combo is the same as before except after 214A, you do 2C 2A(whiff) then 2369B for a left/right mixup.

[LivingShadow]

For the Sandoori: I presume it's also possible to whiff  the j.b/j.c and then hit low.

Some other things I've been trying out.

236b236b236b oki: You have a fair amount of knockdown after the last rekka so you have time to setup something. I usually go with a 9 jump and a crossup j.b.

In a blockstring when you use the knife ending with 421b 27 puts you almost right on top of your knife in most cases. The only case where this doesn't work at all is when they dodge.

623a/b/c: I've been looking through the framedisplay and it seems that the dash in for these is slower than the normal dash (1400 where the dash is 2000). However, the strike itself is faster (Anywhere from 2600 to 3000 depending on which version you use). I've been playing around with some half-charge gimmicks which are turning out rather fun but impractical.

6c236c otg gimmicks: Not really that amazing, but you can get a random kill off of it. 6c is kinda strange; no matter your distance, if you hit you're right next to them.

Now that I think of it we never discussed Ryougi's matchups that much. Here's my thoughts (from K.O.ing the CPU repeatedly )

Aoko: Ryougi's advantage.
Tohno: Even.
Nanaya: Even.
Kouma: Heavily Ryougi's advantage.
Miyako: Even, slightly in Miyako's favor.
Ciel: Unsure, seems like even but it could also be in Ciel's favor.
Sion: Ryougi's advantage... I think.
Ries: Ries advantage.
VSion: Probably VSion's advantage, but Akiha summon isn't quite as effective against Ryougi.
Wara: Even, it would be Wara's favor if he had less lag on his moves.
Roa: Roa's advantage, especially H.
Akiha: Ryougi's advantage.
Arc: Arcuied's advantage.
Warc: Warc's advantage.
VAkiha: Even.
Mech: I think Ryougi's advantage. It mostly depends on how well you shield.
sAkiha: Ryougi's advantage.
Sacchin: Ryougi's advantage slightly.
Len: Ryougi's advantage.
WLen: Unsure, the CPU is crud and I know WLen plays way better than it did.
Nero: Nero's advantage
Hisui: Even.
Kohaku: Kohaku's advantage.

[Rei]

236B ender in the rekka is a launcher... you meant 236A right? Also jump 9 j.B isn't a true crossup since there is protection in the game. You can go for a high-low mixup, but they're usually pretty obvious. After 236A 236A 236A oki, I just dash and run their corpse towards the corner. If I expect a DP or some shit, you can bait it with backdash.

you should only use 421B in blockstrings against F-Moon. And you can do neutral air dodge to push them to the other side for some gimmicks.

6C-> 236C is not that good, and it's hard to hit confirm into if your opponent decides not to block it.

Now that I think of it we never discussed Ryougi's matchups that much. Here's my thoughts (from K.O.ing the CPU repeatedly )

I'm sorry, but you fighting against the CPU alot doesn't count as matchup experience.

These are from my experience with playing at majors and against some decent people and at tournaments. This is for C-Ryougi only.

Aoko: 6-4 Ryougi (I've played mostly against H moon)
Tohno: 4-6 Tohno (H-Moon)
Nanaya: 5-5 (Against C and F)
Kouma: 6.5-3.5 Ryougi (F-Kouma) Though he's like, the hardest to combo
Miyako: 6-4 Miyako (Mostly against C, but F would be more annoying. Her mobility is soo good and her angles that she comes in at :/)
Ciel: 4-6 Ciel (Zar destroys me with superior spacing and has answers to jump-ins with 22B, C also does a fairly good job, and around 5.5k+ to Ryougi with 100 meter)
Sion: 5-5 (H-Sion from Rayza)
Ries: 5-5 (F-Ries) you can tag the normals, but she does have those angles
VSion: 6.5-3.5 V-Sion (sp00ky and Rayza tend to knock me over pretty easily once they get in my ass)
Wara: No say. I've played Ehrik once, but that was like it. Didn't give me enough impression of the matchup
Roa: 6-4 Ryougi (H-Roa, C-Roa)
Akiha: 5-5 (F-Akiha)
Arc: 6-4 Ryougi (F-Arc, C-Arc) Arc has nothing on your normals and 5B poke outs... true F's 236 series are godlike, but 236B has quite a lot of startup
Warc: Not enough experience
VAkiha: Not enough experience
Mech: 5-5 (C-Mech, F-Mech) I play against Rayza's C-mech which yeah... Mech can shoot projectiles all day and poke with 2B all day outranging you and stopping jump ins with jetpacks. You really have to be sneaky to get in, but once you're in . As for F... I've yet to beat Zar's in a set. Then again, it's Zar.
sAkiha: 6-4 Ryougi
Sacchin: Not enough experience
Len: 6.5-3.5 (H-Len) It's always your turn
WLen: 5.5-4.5 WLen (C-WLen) Played against XAQ's in tourney a few times. I've taken matches off of him, getting in and getting around the pillars + traps are the hard part. Also safe DP is annoying to deal with.
Nero: Not enough Experience (though I've played against a few Neros here and there.)
Hisui: Not enough Experience
Kohaku: 7-3 H-Kohaku. This matchup is gay as fuck. 6-4 Other Kohakus

[LivingShadow]

236B ender in the rekka is a launcher... you meant 236A right? Also jump 9 j.B isn't a true crossup since there is protection in the game. You can go for a high-low mixup, but they're usually pretty obvious. After 236A 236A 236A oki, I just dash and run their corpse towards the corner. If I expect a DP or some shit, you can bait it with backdash.

No, I meant 236b. The only requirement is that you get enough gravity that they can't tech before they hit the ground. It gives you slightly less time than 236c.

you should only use 421B in blockstrings against F-Moon. And you can do neutral air dodge to push them to the other side for some gimmicks.

I'll admit that 421b isn't the best choice if they can dodge since it's horrible on whiff but I was just thinking of the knife pickup options. I'll have to remember the neutral air dodge.

6C-> 236C is not that good, and it's hard to hit confirm into if your opponent decides not to block it.

I'm talking OTG. Pulling out 6c without a setup is just asking to be punished.

Now that I think of it we never discussed Ryougi's matchups that much. Here's my thoughts (from K.O.ing the CPU repeatedly )

I'm sorry, but you fighting against the CPU alot doesn't count as matchup experience.

I'm quite aware of that, hence the emote. It was more or less guesswork.

These are from my experience with playing at majors and against some decent people and at tournaments. This is for C-Ryougi only.

Aoko: 6-4 Ryougi (I've played mostly against H moon)
Tohno: 4-6 Tohno (H-Moon)
Nanaya: 5-5 (Against C and F)
Kouma: 6.5-3.5 Ryougi (F-Kouma) Though he's like, the hardest to combo
Miyako: 6-4 Miyako (Mostly against C, but F would be more annoying. Her mobility is soo good and her angles that she comes in at :/)
Ciel: 4-6 Ciel (Zar destroys me with superior spacing and has answers to jump-ins with 22B, C also does a fairly good job, and around 5.5k+ to Ryougi with 100 meter)
Sion: 5-5 (H-Sion from Rayza)
Ries: 5-5 (F-Ries) you can tag the normals, but she does have those angles
VSion: 6.5-3.5 V-Sion (sp00ky and Rayza tend to knock me over pretty easily once they get in my ass)
Wara: No say. I've played Ehrik once, but that was like it. Didn't give me enough impression of the matchup
Roa: 6-4 Ryougi (H-Roa, C-Roa)
Akiha: 5-5 (F-Akiha)
Arc: 6-4 Ryougi (F-Arc, C-Arc) Arc has nothing on your normals and 5B poke outs... true F's 236 series are godlike, but 236B has quite a lot of startup
Warc: Not enough experience
VAkiha: Not enough experience
Mech: 5-5 (C-Mech, F-Mech) I play against Rayza's C-mech which yeah... Mech can shoot projectiles all day and poke with 2B all day outranging you and stopping jump ins with jetpacks. You really have to be sneaky to get in, but once you're in . As for F... I've yet to beat Zar's in a set. Then again, it's Zar.
sAkiha: 6-4 Ryougi
Sacchin: Not enough experience
Len: 6.5-3.5 (H-Len) It's always your turn
WLen: 5.5-4.5 WLen (C-WLen) Played against XAQ's in tourney a few times. I've taken matches off of him, getting in and getting around the pillars + traps are the hard part. Also safe DP is annoying to deal with.
Nero: Not enough Experience (though I've played against a few Neros here and there.)
Hisui: Not enough Experience
Kohaku: 7-3 H-Kohaku. This matchup is gay as fuck. 6-4 Other Kohakus

I agree with most of those, the only one I don't completely agree with is Ries. I think it may be 6-4 Ries favor, but I'm not entirely sure. With regards to Wara, I think it's 5.5-4.5 wara's favor. He does have an advantage but it isn't that huge. (From experience playing Ehrik.) Mech's matchup becomes a little easier once you start shielding those jet-packs and missiles.

[LivingShadow]

I just pulled 4.5 off of a meterless combo on H-Aoko.

11 hits. All I can remember is 6c jbc jbc j236b. That leaves 5 hits which means that it was 5bb, 2b, 2c, and 5c in some strange order (It can't be either of the strings we normally use). To training mode to try to figure it out.

For reference, my normal BnB does about 4.3 to Aoko and 3.9 to VSion and ends the same way.

It may not be worth it, but I'm just curious what I pulled off.

[Rei]

Nah, Ries' attacks are slow and you have ways of getting out of pressure because you're Ryougi. You can read a lot of what Ries is doing just because most of it can be reacted to.

[Rei]

important discovery!!!

2A 5C meaty beats out most backdashes and most heats. Also, 2A 5C 5BB 2B does more damage than 2A 5BB 2B 5C, so it's also increasing out damage output by a little bit even though there's a reverse beat in the start.

The option select works on
Heat Only: Kouma
Backdash only: Red Arc, Arcueid, Len, Kohaku
Both: Mech, Nero, Ryougi, Nanaya, Ries, VSion, Sion, Akiha, Warakia, Hisui,
Doesn't work: White Len

still testing, bear with me

[LivingShadow]

important discovery!!!

2A 5C meaty beats out most backdashes and most heats. Also, 2A 5C 5BB 2B does more damage than 2A 5BB 2B 5C, so it's also increasing out damage output by a little bit even though there's a reverse beat in the start.

That string sounds like the one I did accidentally earlier.

[Rei]

This is what I was talking about

http://www.justin.tv/a/ehrikirhe/b/268378882 1:05:27

I did it in the team tournament. I messed up the followup but I showed that meaty 2A 5C beats wakeup heat. Slower heats can be clashed if you slightly delay your 5C

[s4itox]

Random combo inspired by F-Ryougi:
(j.C)standard bnb intro -> tk236B 5BB 214A 5BB 214C jumpcancel j.C land j.BC j.BC airthrow/236B

63214C combo probably beats it in damage and normal 623B 236C ender probably beats it in oki but thoughts?

[LivingShadow]

I think we already knew about that one. (If you guys didn't, I did.)

I use 22c instead of tk236b but for the purposes of this combo it doesn't change the timing that much.
I would suggest: tk236b 5bb 214a 2c5c 214c (whiff j.b) 5bb j.bc j.bc airthrow/236b/236c

It can be extended to: tk236b 5bb 214a 2c5c 214c (whiff j.b) 5bb 214c (whiff j.b) 5bb j.bc j.bc airthrow/236b/236c (not really practical for the meter it uses)

I've been using those for a while and what I've been finding is that it doesn't actually increase the damage output that much. But they are hype to watch.

Also: after playing around a bit more and remembering what Shlopoke did in his vid I came up with:

2b5bb5b2c22c(dash backwards)2c5bb214a2c(delay)5c5bb j.bc j.bc airthrow/236b/236c for 5.5ish against VSion
It should also be possible to substitute 236c for 5bb aircombo if you want better oki.

[s4itox]

I think you would HAVE to use 22C instead of tk236B in the first two that you listed, because the tk236B counts as a jump cancel and thus you would be unable to jump cancel the 5BBs into aircombo. Unless I'm wrong and 214C whiff j.B resets the string?

And yeah, I've reasoned that most of my longass C-Ryougi combos are actually a lot more effort than they are worth for the damage and meter gained/use as compared to basic bnb. The thing is that all Ryougi combos are hype to watch 

The second one looks viable though, and I assume it's a corner combo. I'll check that one out when I get a proper opportunity.

[Rei]

I don't like using 214C in combos. It prorates the damage to hell :/ 50% relative proration is ouch...

[LivingShadow]

I think you would HAVE to use 22C instead of tk236B in the first two that you listed, because the tk236B counts as a jump cancel and thus you would be unable to jump cancel the 5BBs into aircombo. Unless I'm wrong and 214C whiff j.B resets the string?

And yeah, I've reasoned that most of my longass C-Ryougi combos are actually a lot more effort than they are worth for the damage and meter gained/use as compared to basic bnb. The thing is that all Ryougi combos are hype to watch 

The second one looks viable though, and I assume it's a corner combo. I'll check that one out when I get a proper opportunity.

I believe that 214c resets the the string. But then again I don't use tk236b.

And yeah, 214c kills your damage, try using 421c instead since it prorates better, 85% proration.

[Rei]

421C isn't used in combos because it's MUCH slower and tends to whiff in a combo.

Also as long as you have a combo counter up in a combo you've jump cancelled already, you cannot jump cancel again.

There is no reset.

[LivingShadow]

421C isn't used in combos because it's MUCH slower and tends to whiff in a combo.

Also as long as you have a combo counter up in a combo you've jump cancelled already, you cannot jump cancel again.

There is no reset.

421c isn't that hard to get in just change it to 2b5bb5c2c22c5bb214a2c (delay) 5c421c (cancel strait to j.b) j.bc j.bc airthrow/j236b/j236c (5.2 on V.Sion) The reason it's whiffing is actually because 5c was input too early so the hitbox is too high.

In general it isn't worth it to use 214c/421c. All you need to do is use 2c5c5bb after 214a and you get the same damage. Adding in the extra 2c after 22c gives about 300 more damage.

Thanks for the corrections on the jump cancel.

[MissedFRC]

Warc: Not enough experience

For C-Warc:

I just noticed this so it's a pretty late reply but I'd say this is 5.5-4.5 in Warc's favor. Neutral game seems pretty tough for C-Ryougi to me as j.B, blood rings and aerial teleports make it really hard for Ryougi to get close. Getting CH by j.B or rings is obviously not too fun.

Both characters on defense seem pretty similar to each other. Warc and Ryougi both lack free reversals (236C for Warc and I believe it's 421C for Ryougi? both cost meter). Both characters have some pretty mean staggers, although I believe Warc's offense edges C-Ryougi's out due to the threat of Warc's throw and 63214C. She also gets rewarded with more damage in almost all situations, considering Warc doesn't require meter to get her best damage.

[s4itox]

2A 5BB 2B 5C [2C tk236B] 5BB 214A 2C (delay) 5C 421C j.B dj.BC 236B

I like my tks.
Hits higher (I think) than using ... [2C 22C 5BB] ... and saves you 100% meter / puts you 10.5% higher than your starting point, given you started with over 100%. 236C ender is not worth the meter (6144 vs 6198).

[LivingShadow]

It does do more damage since tk236b is 85% proration while 22c is 60%. There's a 600 damage difference between the two.

Comparing:
2b5bb5c2c22c(backdash may be required)2c5bb214a2c(delay)5c421cj.b j.bc j.236b (about 5.5k)
to your:
2a5bb2b5c2ctk236b5bb214a2c (delay) 5c421c j.b j.bc 236b (6.1k)

Yours is probably better out of the two. Although, the 22c combo can be done from a little farther than midscreen.

[s4itox]

Ah shit, forgot to say.
That damage was done against F-Ryougi, so realistically it may only be about 5.5~5.6k ish against VSion or something.